IT’S HARD TO CONCEIVE, BUT IT WAS A HALF CENTURY AGO THAT THE LAST TRULY ‘NEW’ GENRE IN ROCK AND JAZZ WAS BORN. EVEN MORE AMAZING, THE MUSIC, INITIALLY CALLED ‘JAZZ-ROCK’ BUT EVENTUALLY TERMED ‘FUSION’, WAS POPULAR! BANDS LIKE RETURN TO FOREVER, HERBIE HANCOCK’S HEADHUNTERS, WEATHER REPORT, YES, KING CRIMSON AND GENTLE GIANT FILLED LARGE ARENAS.
YES, THERE WAS SOMETHING BESIDES THE MINDLESS DISCO BEAT AND ANGRY PUNK ROCK FOR FANS OF SERIOUS MUSIC, AND OF ALL OF THE MUSICAL “FADS”, FUSION HAS STOOD THE TEST OF TIME.
DEREK SHULMAN WAS A FOUNDING MEMBER OF ONE OF THE MOST ARTSY OF THE FUSION BANDS, GENTLE GIANT. THEIR ALBUMS OCTOPUS, THREE FRIENDS AND FREE HAND ARE ALWAYS ON THE LIST OF ‘MUST HAVE’ ALBUMS OF THAT GENRE, AND IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO SEE THEM IN CONCERT, JUST GET A LOAD OF THEIR 30 (!) DISC BOXED SET OF ‘LIVE’ RECORDINGS, UNBURIED TREASURE, WHICH CAPTURES BOTH THE ENERGY AND VIRTUIOSITY OF THE BAND’S SOUND AND MUSICAL VISION.
DEREK SHULMAN WAS ONE OF THE FOUNDING MEMBERS OF THE BAND ALONG WITH BROTHERS PHIL AND RAY, PLAYING BASS, SAX, RECORDERS, KEYBOARDS AND SINGING ON THEIR SIGNATURE ALBUMS. NOW A RECORD EXECUTIVE, THE SCOTTISH BORN SHULMAN BRINGS AN INTRIGUING PERSPECTIVE TO THE MUSIC THAT STILL RESONATES TODAY.
HE TOOK SOME TIME OUT OF HIS BUSY SCHEDULE, AND AS EXPECTED, LIKE HIS MUSIC, SHULMAN WAS ARTICULATE, THOUGHTFUL AND ALWAYS HUMOROUSLY ENGAGING.
1970 WAS THE BURGEONING OF “JAZZ-ROCK” OR “FUSION”, AND YOU RELEASED YOUR FIRST ALBUM THEN.
Yes we did; it was released in October of 1970, so it’s been 50 years since we put the album out and since we formed. It’s been a long time. I’m chronologically aging myself; I hope the music has stood the test of time, even if we haven’t! (laughs)
WAS THERE A TEMPLATE AT THE TIME THAT MADE ALL OF THESE ROCK AND JAZZ BANDS COMBINE FORCES?
IN PARTICULAR, YOU WENT FROM A POP/R&B BAND TO THIS INTRICATE MUSIC. WHAT HAPPENED?
My brothers and myself were in a fairly successful R&B band (Simon Dupree and the Big Sound) that had a couple very big hits in the pop charts.
As we grew musically and visionally, we saw our world expanding and the world of pop became very frustrating, to tell you the truth.
Our father was a professional jazz band leader and trumpet player. His first love was modern jazz-Shorty Rogers, Charlie Parker, Stan Getz, etc. Also classical of course, so this was all part of our history as musicians. That was all part of our soul.
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“We always had themes in our music; it wasn’t just “a song”. Also, lyrically we liked to have themes, so we combined the both together to write a mini-book in a musical album”
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YOU PLAYED THE SAX ON YOUR ALBUMS. WHO DID YOU WANT TO SOUND LIKE?
I just wanted to make sure that the notes were right (laughs). The music of Parker, Getz and Mulligan were all playing in the house. In fact, my older brother Phil was a real jazz freak.
My father would come home after playing a gig at night at one o’clock with his fellow musicians and literally play records until the morning, even jamming together in our house. This was our existence, so coming from pop to R&B and then to jazz and classical was just who we were.
Moving from a pop band into something that was a little bit more musical was always going to be our intention. Being in a pop world was very frustrating, so we decided to leave Simon and The Big Sound and try something new. We didn’t know what it would be, but we certainly knew we wanted to be something other than a pop band that did the circuit in England.
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“We didn’t know what it would be, but we certainly knew we wanted to be something other than a pop band that did the circuit in England”
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WHEN YOU WERE DOING YOUR FIRST ALBUM, WERE YOU AWARE OF BANDS LIKE KING CRIMSON, YES, OR THE MAHAVISHNU ORCHESTRA?
We didn’t have a template. There were a couple of artists that we had heard that were doing things a little differently than the pop world at that point.
The Beatles really changed everything. Sgt Pepper changed the whole world. No matter who you were, the Beatles changed you, as well as pop, rock, jazz and R&B bands. We actually recorded in the very same studios when we were with Simon Dupree.
There were a couple of musicians that started around the time that we did. Frank Zappa was an influence because he was doing things with the Mothers of Invention which we loved; it was jazz fused with pop, R&B. It had that element that surprised us.
We thought “WOW! If he can do those kind of things, we can do it too!”
There was also a band in California, Spirit, who we were introduced to by a guy named Reggie Dwight, who became Elton John. He told us “you need to listen to this band, because they’re doing really interesting things”.
So there were some bands that we heard, but when we had Gary (Green) and Kerry (Minnear) on board to join us, we became our own entity. The “influences” were more of a direction, and we hunkered down during our rehearsals and became who we were. We were very cocooned at the time. What you heard is what we were, without any “let’s be like so and so”.
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“Sgt Pepper changed the whole world. No matter who you were, the Beatles changed you, as well as pop, rock, jazz and R&B bands”
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YOU ALSO DID A RARITY FOR THE TIME WITH YOUR THREE FRIENDS LP BEING A CONCEPT ALBUM
These things were certainly not thought out to be a commercial ploy on the public; it we was just something that we came up with .
Thankfully, we were left alone by any record company, A&R/executives because I think they were too afraid the headstrong Shulmans! (laughs) They didn’t want to interfere with our world, so no one stopped us.
It was a fairly unique idea then, although it sounds kind of hokey these days to have a concept album like in a book.
All of our music had themes, because Kerry (who was one of our primary musical composers) came from the world of classical music. He scored, and had a degree in composition.
We always had themes in our music; it wasn’t just “a song”. Also, lyrically we liked to have themes, so we combined the both together to write a mini-book in a musical album.
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“We utilized everything and anything we could get our hands on to get our embouchures around and our fingers playing to see what we could do both fun, interesting and especially surprising”
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YOU ALSO DID A LOT OF VOCAL HARMONIES.
We utilized everything and anything we could get our hands on to get our embouchures around and our fingers playing to see what we could do both fun, interesting and especially surprising .
One thing about us is that we were ADD, and we didn’t like want to do something boring, like put a mellotron pad to sound like an orchestra. We wanted to surprise ourselves as well as the audience, which grew exponentially.
We used our voices in different parts to sing in harmony, which was a natural outgrowth of that.
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“We wanted to surprise ourselves as well as the audience, which grew exponentially.”
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YOUR ALBUMS ALSO HAD TRUE IMPROVISATIONS AND JAMS, AS ON “PEEL THE PAINT” AND “SCHOOL DAYS”.
Those were things we enjoyed doing. In the earlier albums there were things we were let alone to do. The vibraphone solos, guitar solos, drum parts were where no one said “Don’t do it”, so we did it!
Commercial or non-commercial, good-sounding or bad-sounding-this is what we did and who we were, and who we still are.
AN ALBUM LIKE OCTOPUS IS PRETTY COMPLEX. THAT TAKES SOME EFFORT AND TEAM WORK. ON THE OTHER SIDE, YOUR CONCERTS SEEMED MUCH MORE IMPROVISED.
We were very hard working as a commercial band, so when we weren’t recording or touring we were rehearsing, and we rehearsed a great deal.
But the thing about our recorded albums and live shows was that our albums were more like sketches for the live shows which were the paintings. We used the recordings as a segue into the concerts; we could stretch out some of the music we had on the albums into a “live” version which was different than the recorded piece of music. We allowed ourselves to try different things, and in that way we could surprise the audience, and even ourselves.
In our rehearsals, we’d sit around and try different things, and if we thought the audience might be a little complacent at some point, we’d do this and have them jump out of their seats and yell “What the hell just happened?” We had fun with it.
One thing which is very important for people to know is that we took our music very seriously, but we didn’t take ourselves that seriously.
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“our albums were more like sketches for the live shows which were the paintings. We used the recordings as a segue into the concerts”
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DURING THAT TIME, THE WORD WAS “YES AND KING CRIMSON DO THEIR ALBUMS NOTE FOR NOTE, BUT GENTLE GIANT IS SOMETHING ELSE IN CONCERT”
Part of that was our background of being a band in the ‘60s. If you get on stage, there’s a reason you go on stage: it’s to entertain as well as play music. We like to have fun on stage; we didn’t want to just emulate the same music on the album. That’s almost like lip-syncing. Why would you do that?
We stretched ourselves out from what the album sounded like, but we also had fun doing it. We wanted our fans and followers to have fun too.
We were obviously very tight, but we allowed ourselves spaces for solos and elements of going places to allow room for improvisation. It wasn’t just “follow the leader” on the sax or keyboards, it was also pretty structured.
ONE OF YOUR ALBUMS, IN A GLASS HOUSE, NEVER MADE IT TO THE STATES. WHAT HAPPENED?
Columbia Records that it was too un-commercial to release. They thought the band was to “far-out” to even make a showing in the stores. They wouldn’t even put it out.
It came out in Europe and the rest of the world, and it was one of the biggest imports. It sold almost gold on export.
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“we took our music very seriously, but we didn’t take ourselves that seriously”
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THE CRASHING GLASS INTRO WAS BRILLIANT. HOW DiD THAT COME UP?
We had these sound effect albums, and loved playing around with sounds, just to give things flavor.
I heard the smashing glass, and the name of the album was In A Glass House, so we recorded the glass from an lp, and put a 5/4 signature to it as an intro to the song with the engineer. It was something that Ray came up out of nowhere.
You try to rationalize where your creative impulses come from, and then it doesn’t become real. You come up with an idea; most people liked it and Columbia didn’t.
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“We like to have fun on stage; we didn’t want to just emulate the same music on the album. That’s almost like lip-syncing. Why would you do that?”
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THE ALBUMS FREE HAND AND BEYOND HAVE A DIFFERENT FEEL AND SOUND. WAS THAT A RESULT OF NATURAL GROWTH OR THE US TOURS?
A bit of both. We were in our prime then and playing to a lot of people. My brother Phil had left the group after Octopus, so as a five-piece for In A Glass House we re-aligned out direction, and when (drummer) John Weathers joined us he drove the band harder. So we had more of a backbeat no matter what time signature we played. After all, we were a rock band. You can use the word “progressive” or “jazz” or “fusion” but we were just a band that rocked. Whatever musical element you wanted to title us with was up to you.
So the subtraction of Phil as a musician and lyric writer pushed us into a direction that was a little more direct.
We as musicians and as people go through stages of development from infancy to adolescence to young adult and then middle age and elderly. That was our growth as a band, and then you die (laughs). That was Gentle Giant from 1970-1980.
YOU GUYS JUST RELEASED A 30 (!) ALBUM COLLECTION OF CONCERT RECORDINGS. HAVE YOU LISTENED TO EVERYTHING?
I haven’t gone through all of it, but I have gone through a couple of the cds and they are quite good. It shows what we did during those “live” shows during those tours when we’d put out an album and play it. I think it’s a beautiful set, with the book and all the bells and whistles that are in there. It looks fantastic.
Some of the live shows that I’ve heard sound pretty good, even though they are not all exactly “state of the art” 24 track recordings. Some of them are, though, and they are pretty interesting, and for the most part we are in tune. (laughs)
WHEN YOU HEAR THESE RECORDINGS, DO YOU HAVE A SMILE ON YOUR FACE OR ARE YOU MORE ANALYTICAL ?
I have a smile on my face because I knew we were having fun. That always comes out in our music. It brings you back to a period where there was a lot of naivete, which is good, because the business was naïve at the time.
We were having fun on stage and doing very well. Our fans were enjoying what we were doing. We were enjoying our fans enjoying us. Even with the wrong notes or fluffs, it’s what happens on stage and for the most part it was pretty tight.
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I have a smile on my face because I knew we were having fun. That always comes out in our music. It brings you back to a period where there was a lot of naivete, which is good, because the business was naïve at the time”
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YOU ARE NOW AN EXECUTIVE IN THE RECORD BUSINESS. WHAT AT THIS STAGE OF YOUR CAREER INSPIRES AND MOTIVATES YOU?
Now that I’m on the dark side? (laughs)
First, what doesn’t motivate me that much are the computer-driven , analytic pop hits which you can scientifically put together to discover what the mainstream will swallow.
I think that is a little sad because there is no soul, heart or humanity to a lot of the music that hits the charts.
However, some of the hip-hop world has some incredibly interesting dynamics. It’s almost like progressive music in some aspects, with us having been sampled quite a few times. Run The Jewel are big fans of ours and had a sample of our “Knots” for their hit “Legend Has It” on The Black Panther movie. It seems that the hip-hop world is fond of Gentle Giant and other progressive bands.
They are much more open to interesting music than Taylor Swift and that kind of world.
IS THERE ANYTHING YOUR PARENTS TAUGHT YOU, A RELIGION OR PHILOSOPHY THAT HAS GUIDED YOU?
We were very lucky in that we always had music in the house. Music was part of our existence.
My father died when he was only 50; they just wanted us to enjoy our lives and be happy. If it was by being a musician, that was good enough. I was never forced into anything, but was taught values that were to be decent, to respect other people as well as ourselves.
They did it by living it out. We were Jewish by birth, so we were taught the practical values of Judaism of being decent to others, yourself and your family. That was very important. There was a lot of love in the house.
These values were important. We didn’t have a lot of money. My father was a bit of a spendthrift and my mother always put money in a jar to make sure we had food on the table.
Education was very important to us. We were all lucky to pass the exams to go to grammar school and get a good education. That’s something I still endorse; to make sure that you first learn values and then get an education.
We need to learn. History tells us we are who we are and you don’t just look at Google to see the answers in the headlines.
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“We were having fun on stage and doing very well. Our fans were enjoying what we were doing. We were enjoying our fans enjoying us”
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WHAT DO YOU WANT TO BE REMEMBERED FOR WHEN THEY PUT YOU IN THE PINE BOX?
I just want to put on the epitaph “Now What?” (laughs)
TALKING TO DEREK SHULMAN REMINDED ME OF THE TIMES WHEN IT WAS ACTUALLY FUN TO GO TO A CONCERTS BY THE LIKES OF GENTLE GIANT. THERE WERE NO DANCERS, SPECIAL EFFECTS OR GIMMICKS, JUST GREAT MUSICIANS HAVING FUN AT THEIR CRAFT. EVERYONE LEFT THE CONCERT HALL WITH A SMILE ON THEIR FACES. THAT’S WHAT THE ALLURE WAS FOR ME, AND THAT’S WHY I EVENTUALLY ABANDONED THE ANGER OF ROCK FOR THE JOY OF MAINSTREAM JAZZ.
BUT, IF YOU’VE NEVER HEARD THE GENTLE GIANT ALBUMS FROM THE 1970S, YOU’LL BE QUITE AMAZED THAT MUSIC THIS INTRICATE AND THIS SOPHISTICATED COULD ACTUALLY BE PLAYED ON “POP” RADIO. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME AMERICAN TEENS DANCED TO A 5/4 RHYTHM?
SHULMAN AND GENTLE GIANT WERE ABLE TO CAPTURE THE IMAGINATION OF PEOPLE WHO THOUGHT THAT MUSIC COULD BE SUITABLE FOR THE BRAIN AND HEART AS WELL AS THE FEET. AS HE WANTS INSCRIBED ON HIS EPITAPH, SHULMAN CONTINUES TO LOOK FOR EXCITING WORLDS OF SOUND. FOLLOW THE GENTLE GIANT!